34 replies to this topic

[IBBadDude]

Scb,

Wow, us simple people, like it simple and your anger is real obvious. "at will" is what it is and your charactorazation of the law is inaccurate. Shows your lack of knowledge of the law We can agree to disagree.

The fact is the good union jobs you speak of being outsourced is only a drop in the bucket of the overall job loss in this country, it's a fact. You blaming us for all of it and not taking any responsibility is ridiculous. We aren't perfect but you have to take a little responsibility, just a little?

You talk about the constraints of the law and only how they negativly effect your perspective. I am good with throwing all the laws out, all of them and let the strong survive. That means when a company acts a fool, we as workers do what we feel is nessacary and only the strong survive. We did that early in our history and companies sought shelter from the rain and pushed to pass them damn laws you speak of. You forget as working people rose against unsafe, unlivable conditions they realized their power and commerce ran to congress passing laws attempting to bring peace.

We are human and emotions drive us as you admitted in your post(you got my goat). Like it or not when you push people to THEIR brink, you believing they are unreasonable as did people like you in the pre 1930s eras, the masses get crazy and seek revenge for the wrongs served on them(perceived or reality). By you taking such an aggressive approach, you provoke situations that get out of control, once again, humans and our damned emotions.

That's when reality intrudes

[IBBadDude]

Scb,

I think he's talking to you

[IBBadDude]

Oh, one more thing. You'll love the name of the site........

www.hateyourboss.org

[scb]

-IBBadDude-

'Heh, if you want to push your "at will", claim then let's go back and take a look at your original claim; i.e....

"93% of workers work for employers that have the right under the law to terminate their employment at any time"

...but you and I BOTH know that's an invalid figure. Heck, more than 7% of the workers in the PRIVATE workforce of this country are union members who work under union contracts and are under the auspices of the NLRB/Railway Act and are thus not subject to "at will" employment terms. But that's only in the PRIVATE sector. Remember, over 12% of the TOTAL workforce are "union" members, the remainder being in the public sector. That percentage ALSO is not "at will". But that doesn't deal with the entire figure either, since public sector workers generally (heck, almost always!) work under "civil service" terms in which THEY aren't subject to "at will" employment terms, either.

But let's get back to the private sector. In addition to those more than 7% union MEMBERS are literally hundreds of thousands more who are NOT union members, yet are subject to union contracts which limit THEIR "at will" status. (I know for a fact that their are tens of thousands of such employees at UPS alone) Then there are those who are NOT working under union contracts, but are employed by those who contract with various governments who disallow their contractors holding their employees to "at will" conditions.

Bottom line? Your "93%" figure is way off base. Go figure.

As for your "drop in the bucket" in terms of jobs going overseas...well, pray tell, just were did the BULK of the moisture come from? What non-unionized industries made up the bulk? As for "taking blame", as an employer, I'll jump right in there and accept it if "blame" is what you want to call it. Me, it just seems to be a natural turn of business. After all, am I, as an employer (and I'm speaking of employers generally) somehow OBLIGATED to provide (read "subsidize") employment of those who demand more than they're worth? Am I supposed to present jobs as some sort of a gift to those who don't produce as efficient and cost-effect return in terms of what I pay for labor in comparison to what can be obtained elsewhere? I think not!

Of course, there are those who want to try to FORCE the capitalist employers of this world to see things their way. Again, historically that's worked real well, hasn't it? (surely I don't need to list the countries again!) Sorry, but I think you'll find it's virtually impossible to enslave the human intellect, or to tie in one place human ambition and industriousness. It travels to where it is APPRECIATED.

Bear in mind, I'm not pushing ANYBODY "to the brink". In fact, I and employers generally aren't asking ANYTHING of workers they aren't willing to give. They don't want to work under the terms in which we're willing to provide jobs? Then fine! They can find and/or fund their own employment then. Don't like the terms we have to offer? No skin off my butt if they'd rather starve. Truth is, far too many individuals think jobs can be made to grow on trees...while they're engaged in chopping those very "trees" down. If they want to have their little fun with that, so be it. As for my little orchard, however, me thinks we'll "transplant" and drop our fruit in more hospitabler climes, thank-you!

Just who are "the masses" going to take their revenge on? Think those that COULD provide jobs are going to hang around in this day and age and stand by while the ground is cut out from under them? Is that what happened in Argentina recently? Or what's happening in Venezuela today? Nope....they wire their money abroad, or convert it to easily carried liquid forms of capital....and then hop a plane. And those that are left behind - like the poor peons in Cuba, or the forlorn creatures of North Korea (which, many forget, was the DEVELOPED, INDUSTRIALIZED portion of Korea before the Communists took over!) are left to suffer the results of their self destructive acts of "revenge"; joblessness, poverty, and a society in ruins.

Finally, in terms of "hate your boss" (have to admit I didn't pursue the link or view the video, because I'm basically lazy and pretty sure already of the thrust of the material), from my perspective, "hating your boss" isjust fine and dandy. In fact, if you hate 'em all that much, demonstrate that hate by not allowing him access to your labor anymore. I'm sure it will just break his or her heart. [smile]

Simple truth; the would-be workers of this country NEED employers. In fact, they absolutely depend on them. Their very existence is predicated on an entity being in their "back yard" to employ them. For employers, on the other hand, American labor is purely a matter of convenience. "Yes", it would be nice to hire the home folk, and much preferable if they're a cost-effective option. But if they're not? Well, it just isn't that difficult to find workers elsewhere who ARE willing to be the cost-effective option....and be thankful for the opportunity. Meaning that, while employers may prefer "hiring American" if all other factors are the same, they really don't NEED the American worker at all. And if American labor - particularly ORGANIZED labor - fails to recognize that fact, it does so at its own peril. And some pretty dramatic aspects of that "peril" have ALREADY come into play. Or do you, too, insist on sticking your head in the sand, and denying what happened to those who put their faith in the USW, the UAW, the IAM, the IBEW, the UFCW, the IBT, etc?

Maybe reality sucks...but it *IS* reality.

-scb-

[IBBadDude]

It's actually fallen below 7% but I am sure you will argue that too. And that includes all the freeloading non dues paying members that we provide a service for. Your numbers are wrong with the exeption of 12% when you include public sector. And for that it's 88%, pretty big number no matter who's numbers your going by. Keep splitting hairs because your proving my point over and over so thank you.

You admitted you are lazy and uninformed as you spit this babbling bullshit out so you can feel smart and impress someone(maybe just yourself). You really have no clue and I would love nothing more than to watch you sit at the bargaining table and try and sell your line of shit to a trade unionist that loves his craft.

You've proven you speak for corporate America, You've proven how smart you are, you've proven you know more, you've proven corporate Americas greed, you've proven their entitlement attitude, you've proven their lack of respect for the worker regardless of what country, you've proven their pride in moving jobs out of the country and you've proven corporate America believes there should be no power for the working man.

You win!

Thank you

[scb]

-IBBadDude-

I've proven all that, have I? [smile..what happened? Wisconsin get you down?]

In reference to your allegation that I "admitted" that I was "uninformed"...well, I don't see much point in continuing what I otherwise thought was a decent discussion with one who has "proven" (once again) just how difficult it is to find an active unionist who, when under pressure, can display a level of personal integrity. I was hoping you were different. Unfortunately, that turned out not to be the case.

You are what you are. I'll let you deal with that.

-scb-

[11:58pm]

I think the bottom line here is that besides the fact that every word used by SCaB is a misrepresentation of the truth, It comes down to the fact the he don't like the idea that workers get to work under conditions and enjoy benefits that are dictated by the union and not by the employer/owners.

[smile] <grin> -wink-

[scb]

-11:58-

Unfortunate, isn't it, that individuals such as yourself who seem so well-equipped to CLAIM "misrepresentation[s] of the truth" and such. are apparently totally ill-equipped to back-up those claims when called upon to do so.. So tell us, "11:58", why should you be considered an exception to the rule? Got a something of substance behind your brayings, do ya'? [grin!] If so, then let's hear it.

Don't worry.....I won't be holding my breath.

-scb-

[scb]

-Guys-

A different slant (for you folks, at least) on the Verizon strike can be had at....

http://www.humaneven...le.php?id=45430

The strike line video is particularly interesting. My, what assets to society these union members are! [smile]

-scb-

[11:58pm]

scb, on August 10 2011 - 06:21 AM, said:

-11:58-

Unfortunate, isn't it, that individuals such as yourself who seem so well-equipped to CLAIM "misrepresentation[s] of the truth" and such. are apparently totally ill-equipped to back-up those claims when called upon to do so.. So tell us, "11:58", why should you be considered an exception to the rule? Got a something of substance behind your brayings, do ya'? [grin!] If so, then let's hear it.

Don't worry.....I won't be holding my breath.

-scb-

I guess I hit a nerve again. Sorry.

[scb]

-11:58-

Guess that's what passes for "substantive" [smile] in your neck of the woods, 'eh? Big surprise that! No matter; like I said, I wasn't holding my breath.

-scb-

[Shaman]

scb, on August 10 2011 - 07:24 AM, said:

-Guys-

A different slant (for you folks, at least) on the Verizon strike can be had at....

http://www.humaneven...le.php?id=45430

The strike line video is particularly interesting. My, what assets to society these union members are! [smile]

-scb-

I don't believe anything written on a conservative web site. Given the tone of the posts by many on this forum, I am leaning in the direction of believing anything that these guys are opposed to. This leaves me wondering if "these guys" are antiunion plants. They're very effective if they are! They're very stupid if they aren't!

[scb]

-Shaman-

That's just one site of dozens that's showing that particular video now...and not all of them are of "conservative" orientation. Anti-union plants? Anything is possible, I guess...although, if so, they'd surely be easy enough to identify. Whoever it is, I suspect he could be in a spot of trouble with either local law enforcement and/or department of children services. Beyond that, one would think that if the guy wasn't associated with either of the unions involved, then they would rapidly make that fact known. So far there hasn't been a peep of denial out of 'em.

Sorry to say that one incident like that counterbalances literally hundreds of informational picket lines, or tens of thousands of letters to congressmen, etc. Assuming that no "plant" is involved (and does anyone seriously believe there is?), you can bet that copies of the video will be making the rounds of those who'll sit on final judgment of things like the EFCA in not time flat. I'm sure there are those who figure that it's kinda' hard for unions to maintain that they don't "intimidate" with graphic evidence like that floating around. Nor does it encourage potential employers to engage such "feral" individuals...or the union their kind associate with.

-scb-

[IBBadDude]

scb, on August 10 2011 - 02:57 AM, said:

-IBBadDude-

I've proven all that, have I? [smile..what happened? Wisconsin get you down?]

In reference to your allegation that I "admitted" that I was "uninformed"...well, I don't see much point in continuing what I otherwise thought was a decent discussion with one who has "proven" (once again) just how difficult it is to find an active unionist who, when under pressure, can display a level of personal integrity. I was hoping you were different. Unfortunately, that turned out not to be the case.

You are what you are. I'll let you deal with that.

-scb-

Pressure, lol. You made me laugh out loud. You don't know pressure, obviously. At a certain point you move on because you gain nothing further from the confrontation. I moved on.

[Shaman]

IBBadDude, on August 10 2011 - 12:22 PM, said:

Pressure, lol. You made me laugh out loud. You don't know pressure, obviously. At a certain point you move on because you gain nothing further from the confrontation. I moved on.

Who has experience under pressure? I assembled about four thousand pages of documents in my efforts to address serious problems in the work place. All of my documents were reviewed by the Alameda County District Attorney's Office. A Deputy D. A. suggested that I go to the Federal Bureau of Investigation. I sent the Concord office of the F.B.I. several documents and made an appointment for an interview. The F. B. I. told me that the statute of limitations had run out for a R. I. C. O. complaint. They were wrong but I called it a day. I had given over a thousand pages of deposition and undergone five psychiatric exams. I have copies of all of them. I filed petitions with more government agencies than you are aware of. I also filed petitions with the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals as well as the California Supreme Court. My efforts paled in comparison to what I have seen some of my friends do. I continue to post here because I gain something regardless of the response. Reading material that is posted on this site and engaging in the actions I have described has resulted my realizing an enhanced state of dispassion. This is a priceless boon for both a Yogi as well as an activist. Have you read my string on the UPS Forum? It is approaching 57,000 views. Do you think it is an accident or is it possible people have found something worthwhile to read?

Namaste,

Charlie