53 replies to this topic

[EdHeisler]

[delegatexvp]

Yeah those right to work in those states for less employees are just rolling in disposable income...enough to pay for their OWN health care, retirement and to fill the employers pockets with profits. Get a clue, unions set the standard for quality and professionalism. Glenn Beck BLOWS!

[scb]

-delegate-

You may be right. However, one can't help but note that, in recent years, the so-called "RTW" states have been increasing opportunities for individuals to actually BE employees...while the non-RTW states have been wallowing in ever higher unemployment. What few "employees" are left in the non-RTW states *might* be doing better than their brothers in RTW states...but the key words there are "few" and "left". The same can be said about union members generally. Now many would say (although perhaps relatively few Teamsters) that having employment is better than not, and that earning one's way competitively is better than living on the dole. Personally, I would agree with them...but to each his own.

As for "get[ing] a clue" about the [alleged] "standard for quality and professionalism" set by unions, one can't help but recognize that, over the last few decades, the only apparent "standard" the unions have set for society generally - and for their own members in particular - is how to throw away jobs through personal greed and non-competitiveness. The mark of a union member in this day and age is his likelihood of being unemployed....and being unwanted by other potential employers. There's a reason for that....and it most definitely is NOT because in the eyes of those that would/could employ them thinking that they represent the "standard" for "quality and professionalism"....unless they consider that "standard" as being on the low side. It might be good for union members themselves to "get a clue" as to that reality.

-scb-

[Farley]

delegate.....scb wants you to "get a clue to reality" so let me help with an illustration.

You are sitting down to XMAS dinner with 10 people, a sumptuous meal of salads, turkey, ham, potatoes, dressing, rolls, fresh vegetables fruits and nuts, pies etc. And what is going to happen is that one person is going to eat it all and allow the other nine to share a biscuit. And if the nine band together and demand more; the one glutton will take it all away and go somewhere where people will be happy to share the biscuit. The moral of the story being, be happy the glutton is giving you crumbs because he could withhold everything....this is just a pattern for reichwing economic philosophy allow the financial gluttons to call all of the shots and hope for an occassional crumb....you know the NEW American way! (by the way the deprived 9 people are the people that actually grew the crops, tended the flocks, and prepared the meal)

ps. Glenn Beck is a fart in a hurricane...focusing on his craziness only allows the real villians to destroy America and it even makes a radical like Bill O'Lielly to appear more reasonable...that is Beck's function and he is best ignored.

[delegatexvp]

Thanks Farley. Excellent read, well said and on point.

[scb]

-delegate-

Yeah, Farley presents a "good read" alright, doesn't he? [smile....think you've just pointed out another union weakness; i.e. - the credibility members give to those who have already proven repeatedly that they're not inhibiited by the slightest hint of integrity].

Then again, those in denial will probably always find a "good read" that finds someone trying to paper-over the fact that unions like the Teamsters over the past few decades have cost more than half their members their jobs, while only partially replacing them with ones of ever decreasing significance, both in terms of both compensation and job satisfaction. Example? I can remember when the NMFA covered close to 3/4s of a million members or more...and the Teamster pension fund were supposedly well-funded and able to provide for the members retirement. Is that how things stand today?

Sorry guys, but the situation you find yourselves in isn't suited to the sophomoric, ersatz jingoism individuals as dishonest as Farley would like you to think it can be reduced to. You "screwed the pooch" for decades...and now "the pooch" has barked and started to [figuratively] bite back. Union members aren't considered as those which "set the standard" for "quality and professionalism" anymore (if, in truth, they ever were); just the opposite, in fact...particularly by those who MATTER, meaning those who could provide JOBS!

Until unions and their members understand that - and realize that they DO have to be "professional" and they DO have to represent the "quality" alternative - as well as the EFFICIENT one - then their jobs are going to CONTINUE to wash away from them like so much sand beneath their feet at the waterline on the beach. That's REALITY, folks...and talk about "sumptuous" meals and all that aren't going to change that reality one iota. Nor is denouncing those who would otherwise offer the jobs and/or making them your enemy. In the end, THEY DON'T NEED YOU! As as been shown time and time again, they can and will GO SOMEPLACE ELSE. Unfortunately, labor - and particularly UNION labor - DOES need them. The only - and I do mean ONLY - viable long term option is to present a positive outlook that would make potential employers WANT to hire union labor....and, right now, except under very special circumstances, that just isn't going to happen. And it's not going to happen because unions, for the most part, aren't LETTING it happen.

In the end, it isn't about isolationist trade policies, reigning in the banks, or any of the other meaningless (in terms of the problem) bug-a-boos thrown around like so much spackle here. Rather, for the union member, it's a question of how to make themselves into a DESIRABLE labor option for potential employers. 'Cause if that question isn't addressed by the domestic unions, there's a who world out there that is ready and willing to address it in their stead.

Homily over......

-scb-.

[DieselSmoke]

So explain to me how 11% of the workforce has the wherewithal to destroy the US economy. Under this logic, the 14% of the workforce employed in financial services sector had no hand in the 11 trillion dollar loss in personal wealth in 2008. It was the unions right? This argument, inclusive of Glenn Beck are about as dumb as the Republicans wielding the ax last Friday to cut funding for Planned Parenthood while giving $30 million to NASCAR.

[Farley]

actually Deisel Smoke, the private sector Union percentage is around 7%....and the SCB contention that the Teamsters have cost their members jobs is just another reichwing lie in their classic deflection tactic of blaming the victim for the consequences of economic gluttony. And scabby (SCB) does not get to define our issues or our rebuttals, and his dishonest ridiculous assumptions are laughable if they were not so damaging. scabbies anti-Union posts deserve all the credibility of other reichwingers like Michelle Bachman, Glenn beck, Mike Savage, John Boehner, et al. namely stooges of the likes of the Koch Brothers AEI , and other reichwing propagandists.

[scb]

-Diesel-

Not all that hard to explain, really. Same as if a turd - which might be well less than ONE percent of the available volume of a punchbowl - spoils its entire contents. Or are you one who would drink the punch if you saw "just a small turd" floating on it's surface?

But that's not really the issue, is it? After all, we're talking about UNION MEMBERS' JOBS! And the union hob-knobs themselves have recognized that union members have lost theirs at a much more rapid rate than the general laboring population at large. Let's use the example of Teamsters under the NMFA as an example. At one time, there were close to 3/4s of a million or so represented under that agreement...and many more in other aspects of the trucking/transportation industry. How many are there today? And then take away UPS, and how many do you have? The union has quite literally pissed away 3/4s of the jobs it once held claim to. Meanwhile, the industry AS A WHOLE is considerably LARGER than it was back then. See a pattern there? Think the argument is "dumb"?

Not just faulting the Teamsters in that area. The same could be said about the USW, the UAW, the IAM, the UFCW, etc.

i'm reminded of a discussion I got into a few years ago with "alex_y" when he came onto T-Net bragging about the financial performance of YRCW - emphasizing that it was a TEAMSTER organized YRCW that was doing so great. At that time, YRCW's price (as memory serves) was around $44 share (which was BEFORE the 25/1 reverse split, which would have a valuation in terms of today's pricing of close to $1100/share (compared to what it IS at today...around $3.50/share. That's less than half of ONE PERCENT of it's then value!). In any case, I pointed out to him that the underlying financials of the company just weren't that good, implying that it might behoove the Teamsters to take a look at the damage they were doing to their (at that time) 2nd largest transportation employer. My comments were met with the same scorn as you're casting at me know...the same as prior to CFWY going broke, etc. As it turned out, perhaps my comments weren't so "dumb" at all. In fact, if they had been heeded (and I'll freely grant that I was but one small voice "crying in the wilderness", out of of many), literally tens of thousands of Teamsters MIGHT have been able to keep their jobs...and not be wondering what they were going to retire on. And who knows.... perhaps those that remained could have approached their employer REASONABLY much earlier...and avoided the "fire sale" of their services that they're undertaking now.

Makes one wonder what's "dumb", doesn't it?

The point is that you guys can't do anything about how "Glen Beck" or contributions (or lack thereof) to "Planned Parenthood" and/or "NASCAR" affect your business potential (if, in fact, those things HAVE any affect). Nor is continuing to blame others from problems you brought on YOURSELVES going to do you any good. What you CAN do, however, is change how potential employers perceive what you have to offer. You can make yourselves valued...or you can continue along the same path and just keep pissing more and more jobs away (frankly, in the union's core industry, there just aren't that many to dispose of anymore...but that's neither here nor there).

Talk about "dumb" all you want...but it seems to me that the "dumb" among us might - just might, mind you - be those who keeping pulling the same stunts that got them in this predicament to begin with. Then again, that's your decision to make. You want to continue along the present course - and play right into the hands of those who many Teamsters consider their "enemy" - then go right ahead. After all, guys like "Farley" know "what's for" when it comes to business matters, don't they? Haven't they proved that time and time again? [smile]

-scb-

P.S. - I keep wondering what happened to those who took "alex_y"'s strongly implied advice to purchase YRCW at the time. Think they're happy about being lucky if they get 40 cents back out of every HUNDRED dollars they invested?

[Farley]

scabby, if you did not know, Alex passed away....but you are still a reichwing shill without an ounce of credibility...................laugh all you want at Alex's demise...you will NEVER be 1% of the person Alex was.

[scb]

-Farley-

I'm well aware that Alex passed. And while I won't being to cast aspersion on his personal life, and feel for Phil's loss, when it comes to business acumen and knowledge as to what it would take to make the Teamsters successful, I'll be glad to admit that I'll "never be 1% of the person Alex was", in that Alex - nice a person in his social life as he might be - was (like far too many Teamsters) in denial of reality when it came to representing and understanding the members' true interests. I know there are those who'll dispute that (although no doubt they'd pretty much be "in denial" Teamsters as well)...but factual statistics - unlike you - don't lie. And, frankly, I wouldn't want to be that type of person.

The Teamsters aren't where there are today because they confronted reality directly and/or made a significant attempt at understanding the economics surrounding them. Rather, they're there because they listened and followed the advice of far too many clowns such as yourself.

For DECADES now, the Teamsters (along with other unions as well, I'll admit) have handed themselves over to crooks, charlatans, and fools. Now they're paying the price. Is that, somehow, a big surprise?!? Does anyone really wonder why employers don't fall all over themselves trying to hire them?

-scb-

[FlyingVProd]

Farley, on February 20 2011 - 09:32 AM, said:

delegate.....scb wants you to "get a clue to reality" so let me help with an illustration.

You are sitting down to XMAS dinner with 10 people, a sumptuous meal of salads, turkey, ham, potatoes, dressing, rolls, fresh vegetables fruits and nuts, pies etc. And what is going to happen is that one person is going to eat it all and allow the other nine to share a biscuit. And if the nine band together and demand more; the one glutton will take it all away and go somewhere where people will be happy to share the biscuit. The moral of the story being, be happy the glutton is giving you crumbs because he could withhold everything....this is just a pattern for reichwing economic philosophy allow the financial gluttons to call all of the shots and hope for an occassional crumb....you know the NEW American way! (by the way the deprived 9 people are the people that actually grew the crops, tended the flocks, and prepared the meal)

ps. Glenn Beck is a fart in a hurricane...focusing on his craziness only allows the real villians to destroy America and it even makes a radical like Bill O'Lielly to appear more reasonable...that is Beck's function and he is best ignored.

I am a Republican, and I fully agree with you Farley. You are absolutely correct, and Glenn Beck is full of baloney.

So, you know the answer to the problem? Workers EVERYWHERE need to unionize, so no matter where they go they have to share the dinner.

That means unions in China, India, Latin America, the Middle East, etc etc etc.

If you want to help to improve the world economy, you have to look at China, and change needs to be forced upon China by good labor leaders like Lech Walesa, as China improves it will help to improve the whole world economy.

We cannot bring the USA down to the level of China in order to compete with China. China's workforce consists of communist slave labor. BUT, what we can do, is bring China up. And labor unions are part of the answer on how to do that. And I guarantee you that if the Chinese workers had more money in their pockets to participate in the world economy that the world economy would improve.

We learned as a result of the Great Depression on how NOT to do things. If you have many people producing cheap goods, with the workers being paid less and less, while the companies produce more and more for cheaper and cheaper, with the workers not being able to buy anything because they are working but are still poor, soon the whole economy collapses. But, if the workers are paid fair, they can buy stuff, and can participate in the economy. Unions, labor laws, fair trade rules (including anti-trust/anti-monopoly and anti-dumping rules), and fair pay and good treatment for workers, are all things that are good for our economy and which help us avoid another great depression. If we all try to compete with communist slave labor in China, producing more and more for less, while the workers earn less and less, we are heading for a global depression and bad times, just look at where we have been heading, the facts are there to see. We need to go UP and not down. We NEED improvement instead of decline.

The whole world can benefit from having labor unions, labor laws, and fair pay and good treatment for workers, along with enforcing fair trade rules, etc. Labor leaders need to look at the global picture, and need to support labor movements globally, the way that labor unions in the USA and around the world supported Lech Walesa in Poland, there needs to be a global brotherhood amongst workers all around the world.

We need improvement, not decline.

The Chinese went on strike against Honda, and got wage increases, but the people of China need REAL labor unions independent of the government.

Link to article about the strikes in China:

http://www.economist.com/node/16282233

It is damn hard for people to go out and get a good job, and earn fair pay to take care of their family, if there are no jobs, and if all of the jobs are all moving to China, so the way I see it the workers of China must be viewed as our brothers and by fighting for improvement for the workers of China the conditions for all workers will improve. The workers of China are ready to fight for fair pay and for good treatment, and for freedom, democracy, and for good human rights, but the workers of China need labor leaders with courage, wisdom, and strength, to lead them, and the workers of China need support from labor unions around the world.

The world needs more heroes like Lech Walesa.

Healthy, peaceful, evolution must happen in China, and a labor movement in China is part of the way to help evolution to happen, along with supporting good human rights there, and supporting freedom of religion, and a more open Chinese society, etc etc etc.

By fighting for good human rights for all people; we protect our own. By fighting for fair pay and for good treatment for all workers; we protect our own.

Truth.

China could be a great force for good in the world, and could be a great ally, if the people there would cause evolution towards freedom, democracy, and good human rights. The whole thing with communism and with the denial of good human rights just does not work, and it is the 21st Century now and they need to leave communism behind.

And there are several ways we can support healthy evolution in China, and we must do so.

Eleanor Roosevelt and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights
Human Rights Commission

http://womenshistory...uman_rights.htm

Here is the Universal Declaration of Human Rights that Eleanor Roosevelt wanted, and the world still needs it.

http://en.wikipedia....of_Human_Rights

By fighting for good human rights for all people; we protect our own. By fighting for fair pay and for good treatment for all workers; we protect our own.

A labor movement in China can help, and we must support a labor movement in China the same way the world supported Lech Walesa in Poland.

Freedom of religion can help, of which the Catholic Church supports.

The world wide web can help, and the exchange of information and ideas. And a more open Chinese society needs to evolve.

There are a lot of ways we can support healthy evolution in China.

When I lived in Malibu I had a room-mate who is the daughter of a general in communist China, because her father is a general she was allowed to attend college, and then they put her in charge of a hammer factory after she finished school and she ran that for a while, but as soon as she got the opportunity she left China and moved to Malibu in spite of the privledges she had in China because of her father's high position. She too wants to see healthy evolution happen in China, as opposed to violent revolution, but it will take courageous, wise, strong, active people to help China to evolve peacefully. So there are people of all positions in China who want to see healthy evolution happen. And Lech Walesa proved that healthy, peaceful, evolution away from communism is possible.

And I do not know how any Rebublican could be against unions after we watched a union in Poland free Poland, collapse the USSR, bring down the Berlin Wall, and end the Cold War. Fair pay and good treatment for the honest workers is an important part of freedom, democracy, and good human rights, and unions help insure that.

Salute,

Tony V.

[scb]

-TonyV-

That all sounds good and well...but the sad fact is that the Teamsters - and most other unions in this country - have shown that they can't CONSTRUCTIVELY "organize" their way out of paper bag. Look at FedEx. The Teamsters have had DECADES to organize that company...and they've YET to make a significant attempt (once again, I can't help but mention that it was over 30 YEARS AGO now that I heard a Teamster honcho claim that the union would have FedEx organized in a matter of months. Obviously, his definition of a "matter of months" is significantly different than mine.) Face it; they're losing ground rather than gaining...and the reason is that hiring entities view employing union labor as the economic kiss of death. And that view is, for the most part, fairly accurate.

So you can go ahead a dream of future world union domination if you want, all the while ignoring current reality. Meanwhile, the unorganized will keep eating your lunch, and taking advantage of the opportunities you, and those like you, offer them in showing how organizing would be DETRIMENTAL to their interests.

Don't worry about China; their "level" is rising. It's citizens now represent the largest automotive market in the world. They're capitalistic, efficient, and GROWING economically in relation to the U.S.; They can see which side their bread is buttered on...and it is NOT the side that depends on welfare, subsidization, and pie-in-the-sky dreams. They're competitive on the world stage....while their U.S. "union" counterparts are, for the most part, not. All the "Workers of the world unite!" "gritos" aren't going to change that reality in anything like the foreseeable future (nor more likely ever).

You don't want to see it that way, then fine. Might I suggest, however, that you ready yourself to watch the world wave as it passes you by.

-scb-

[FlyingVProd]

SCB,

I have spent too many years doing work without being in a union, while receiving low pay, and unfair treatment, and living like shit, and I do not wish to waste my life getting ripped off and being miserable. I support unions for an improved quality of life. All good, honest workers everywhere need to receive fair pay and good treatment. You have to believe in unions, truly, before you can organize. And any worker who wants a better life for himself and his family will gladly unionize if a good labor leader like Lech Walesa shows them the way. China, India, Latin America, the Middle East, etc etc etc, will unionize if they have good labor leaders leading them, and it is already beginning on some level in those places.

[FlyingVProd]

There is also the world wide web now, and the world wide web is changing EVERYTHING.

[scb]

-FlyingV-

That sounds all fine 'n' dandy...but the unrelenting truth is that, for the average union member over the last couple decades, unions have NOT brought about a "better life", but the bitter disappointment of being unemployed. Now maybe you can justify the "better life" for the privileged few at the expense of the sacrifice of the many, many (again, 3/4s or so of just the "once upon a time" Teamsters alone LOST THEIR JOBS!). Do you think those that have STAYED employed in the transplant auto factories, for example, want to be organized to reach the "better life" achieved by their unemployed "organized" brethren in Detroit? How's about the drivers for Schneider and others; think they're wetting their beds at night over the delicious prospect of becoming Teamsters like their Yellow/Roadway fellows?

Not denying that all GOOD workers everywhere need to receive fair pay and good treatment..but I have yet to see unions provide either...particularly for the GOOD worker. Rather, unions have tended to hold the GOOD worker back, and deny him/her the fruits of what his efforts would otherwise achieved. Think back to the old joke about "seniority" in the "union" Nevada whorehouse...and reflect, for a moment, that it's FAR from being a complete joke.

No doubt that, for a privileged, less ambitious and productive few, unions as they are constituted today are a good thing; after all, they represent a form of welfare, and there will ALWAYS be a segment of the population which won't be satisfied competitively earning their way. But for the rest - those who ARE willing to compete,who DO want to perform efficiently and are CONFIDENT in their own abilities - a union (as most are constituted today) is an anchor holding them back from the "better life" you mention.

Theres a reason why unions represent far less than 10% of the private labor force today...and it isn't because of government intervention, or the perfidious actions of greedy capitalists, or any other such reality-denying rigamarole. Rather it's because unions have demonstrated over and over again that they fail in representing the best, long term interests of their members. As simple - or as complicated, as you prefer - as that.

A final note; unions do not HAVE to be the way they are. They COULD be a POSITIVE societal force. But (for the most part) as they're presently constituted? Not a chance in H_ll.

-scb-

[FlyingVProd]

SCB,

The solutions such as I stated would help the world to improve. Your ideas only lead to further decline.

We need improvement, not decline.

The solutions might be bold, but in today's environment, with the world wide web, they are totally achievable.

[scb]

-FlyingV-

One question...if the whole world is "organized", who's gonna' pay who? You? Do you think the most productive elements of the global society are going to stand by and voluntarily hand over THEIR efforts, THEIR initiative, the wealth THEY created to a mob society that has nothing else to offer beyond being "organized"? Think the means of production are going to be owned and managed by that world-wide union? If so, how are they going to achieve ownership? Think they'll EARN it? Or will they try to confiscate it...ala' every other attempt at broad-scale "socialization"? And once they DO obtain the means of production, etc., are they [the organized work force] going to operate and manage it themselves...like they did so well in the Soviet Union, and are doing now in places like Cuba, Venezuela, and N. Korea now? That your idea of "improvement" is it?

Look "Flying", I understand you desire to be the object of welfare; there are lot of people like you. What you don't seem to understand, however, is that for one to RECEIVE welfare, there have to be others who are in the mood (and the position to GRANT it. Also, you might come to understand that there is no truly "free lunch".

As for "decline", I can't help but again point to the influence of unions in this country. If there is a decline - and I believe there is - the unions have been a prime mover in bringing it about. And frankly I can't believe that giving proven losers more play is going to "achieve" anything....except, perhaps, more losses. When you've got a house on fire, you don't bring in arsonists to put it out.

Lastly, if anything, the WWW tends to intensify and hasten the impact of economic reality, not modify it. It brings people knowledge.....and, in case you hadn't noticed, the better informed individuals in society tend to be the ones less susceptible to the Siren call of labor "organization"

I'll agree with you that we "need improvement"...which is EXACTLY the reason I promote the tenets that I do. The situation has gone way beyond the point where society can afford to let the clowns and charlatans control its outcome, or permit the existence of a welfare "gimme, gimme" class that isn't willing to competitively earn its keep.

-scb-

[Shaman]

I was a Union member for over thirty years. I was very grateful for the wages and conditions that I worked under. The general public doesn't seem to care if workers get higher wages, unless they know the worker personally. Everything you mention is great for the worker. The general public would appreciate their Unionized neighbors more if they took a few hours a week to serve the larger community in an apparent manner.

Corrupt Unions need to go away. It is critical, in todays world, that the whistle blower is protected. Corrupt Unions are threatened by whistle blowers. Corrupt Corporations are threatened by whistle blowers. The protected whistle blower will start to clean up Corporate America and protect the American Dream.

[FlyingVProd]

SCB,

You are getting out of hand and flat ridiculous now. Excuse me while I ignore you. Honest workers are not the same as people on welfare. If you cannot see the difference, then I have nothing further to say to you. And you certainly will not change my point of view.