Who should write our next contract with UPS? Should it be APWA? They are making some pretty wild claims, like reducing union dues and paying out $7000 a month pensions.
If you take a look at the fine print, you'll see that these guys proudly list Tom Coleman as their lawyer. This is the man they will rely on to set up this new Union and he may be involved in the legal side of negotiating their first contract with UPS. Tom Coleman, the site brags, works for the law firm of Williams Mullen. On the Williams Mullen website they detail how they have:
Defeated union organizing attempts for clients in major manufacturing sectors, such as steel, paper, health care, printing, construction and mining.
Represented clients in decertification of unions.
Represented employers in grievance and arbitration matters arising under collective bargaining agreements.
Trained all levels of management for a variety of employers in union avoidance.
There's more. Read it for yourself.
http://www.williamsmullen.com/practice_are...+Employment.htm
What kind of a contract will their lawyer negotiate when he specializes in decertification votes?
George @ www.denverbrown.com
Denverbrown.com ....the view from the driver's side
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Who should write our contract in 2008...Teamsters or APWA ?
Started by Denverbrown, Jul 01 2005 09:53 PM
15 replies to this topic
#1
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Posted July 01 2005 - 09:53 PM
#2
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Posted July 02 2005 - 04:04 AM
Exactly what our boy Hoffa used to do....
#3
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Posted July 02 2005 - 08:00 AM
Over9five said:
Exactly what our boy Hoffa used to do....
You sure he still doesn't?
#4
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Posted July 02 2005 - 09:28 AM
Hmmm.............. No......?
#5
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Posted July 02 2005 - 09:55 AM
DenverBrown,
Lawyers come and go and any new contract will have "teams" of UPS workers with Lawyers to make sure the printed word matches what is negotiated and what is negotitated is legal.”
I'm reminded of some words in Don Henley song "and Lawyers clean up the small details" or something like that.
I am not afraid of UPS workers negotiating their own contract should it get to that. I think that’s was a point you seem to neglect when you title this string “who will negotiate” and then start attacking the APWA lawyers. The Teamsters don’t use Lawyers to negotiate they use them to do as I previously stated “make sure what is written matches what is negotiated and what is negotitated is legal.”
What service are you doing to the UPS workers with a post like that. You imply a condescending attitude towards those that wish only a better arraignment and more freedom. Whether it’s the APWA or a decentralized, member run, new and improved Teamsters its more important, if you have any loyalty to the UPS workers, to keep to the facts. If you want to question the benefit amounts or how a more leaner member run and focused union would cost in dues that’s fine, bring it on. But, don’t neglect to cast your critical eye back towards the Teamsters and levy the same scrutiny and analysis you seem to want to put on the APWA.
Be skeptical but also be balanced.
Don't ever skim by the back of the Teamsters magazine it very insightful. Your worried about the role of "advisors" and neglect to notice the "gatekeepers."
Lawyers come and go and any new contract will have "teams" of UPS workers with Lawyers to make sure the printed word matches what is negotiated and what is negotitated is legal.”
I'm reminded of some words in Don Henley song "and Lawyers clean up the small details" or something like that.
I am not afraid of UPS workers negotiating their own contract should it get to that. I think that’s was a point you seem to neglect when you title this string “who will negotiate” and then start attacking the APWA lawyers. The Teamsters don’t use Lawyers to negotiate they use them to do as I previously stated “make sure what is written matches what is negotiated and what is negotitated is legal.”
What service are you doing to the UPS workers with a post like that. You imply a condescending attitude towards those that wish only a better arraignment and more freedom. Whether it’s the APWA or a decentralized, member run, new and improved Teamsters its more important, if you have any loyalty to the UPS workers, to keep to the facts. If you want to question the benefit amounts or how a more leaner member run and focused union would cost in dues that’s fine, bring it on. But, don’t neglect to cast your critical eye back towards the Teamsters and levy the same scrutiny and analysis you seem to want to put on the APWA.
Be skeptical but also be balanced.
Don't ever skim by the back of the Teamsters magazine it very insightful. Your worried about the role of "advisors" and neglect to notice the "gatekeepers."
#6
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Posted July 02 2005 - 11:21 AM
If you were looking for a law firm to look over a contract you had just negotiated, would you gravitate towards a union busting law firm? Williams Mullen specializes in protecting companies like UPS in conflicts with Unions. Why would any Union choose them?
And if a Union chooses to pay my dues money (itsmymoney) to an Anti-Union law firm for advice, than I don't think they qualify to negotiate my contract.
How can you trust them when they pick a law firm that doesn't like Unions? I don't think I'm attacking APWA if I question whether they have any common sense.
And if a Union chooses to pay my dues money (itsmymoney) to an Anti-Union law firm for advice, than I don't think they qualify to negotiate my contract.
How can you trust them when they pick a law firm that doesn't like Unions? I don't think I'm attacking APWA if I question whether they have any common sense.
#7
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Posted July 02 2005 - 11:29 AM
Being involved in cases like those mention at this webb site should say it all for anyone that cares about getting a decent contract in 08. Firms that tout the great work they do against the hard working union members is asking for trouble in the years ahead. If this is the type firm the APWA wants to work with then they should see the writing on the wall. Do you really expect people to support the APWA when they are hiring a union busting firm to go over the fine print of a new contract. That was all we heard about Jr Hoffa being involved in when he first ran for office. Working for law firms that tout how great they do when taking on working people should make us all sick.
Pension reform is badly needed in this country and in the Teamster Pension Funds in particular. If the congresional office holders will get off thier lazy asses and make this the highest priority, like it should be, then maybe we wouldn't be looking at leaving the Teamsters and having union members hiring union busting law firms to help make it happen.
The union movement in this country has been headed in the wrong direction for years. How can we expect to grow the ranks of union membership when people see that what we are offering is not much better then what they allready have. World wide corporations going belly up and taking peoples retirement years into the crapper should be helping us to grow our ranks, but it doen't seem to be, at the present time. Think it could be related to the fact that many union pension funds are showing the same downward spiral?
For the past couple months now I have read many posts on this subject and see that there are many folks out there that see the same need for reform in our pension systems that I and many of my co-workers see as priority number one in our next contract. The research that has been down by many of these posters shows that people are getting involved in ways never seen before, and thats great.
The only thing we need now is a group that makes sure that anyone involved in this effort have no connection to union busting firms, legal or otherwise.
Pension reform is badly needed in this country and in the Teamster Pension Funds in particular. If the congresional office holders will get off thier lazy asses and make this the highest priority, like it should be, then maybe we wouldn't be looking at leaving the Teamsters and having union members hiring union busting law firms to help make it happen.
The union movement in this country has been headed in the wrong direction for years. How can we expect to grow the ranks of union membership when people see that what we are offering is not much better then what they allready have. World wide corporations going belly up and taking peoples retirement years into the crapper should be helping us to grow our ranks, but it doen't seem to be, at the present time. Think it could be related to the fact that many union pension funds are showing the same downward spiral?
For the past couple months now I have read many posts on this subject and see that there are many folks out there that see the same need for reform in our pension systems that I and many of my co-workers see as priority number one in our next contract. The research that has been down by many of these posters shows that people are getting involved in ways never seen before, and thats great.
The only thing we need now is a group that makes sure that anyone involved in this effort have no connection to union busting firms, legal or otherwise.
#8
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Posted July 02 2005 - 01:56 PM
DenverBrown;
I'm not going to speak on the merits of the accusation levied against the lawyers that the APWA has doing some paper work for them. I think though your blowing their role out of portion. You still seem narrowly focused on attacking the APWA and not saying boo about the injustice that this socialist pension fund meets out on UPS workers. Fine, you want to crap can the APWA because they hired (for the time being) a law firm that has experience in contract negotiations, then have at it, but don't neglect to point your finger back at the alternative.
BTW, I had great lawyer tell me once that the best criminal defenses lawyer were former prosecutor. Lawyers that know and have experience on both sides of the room are the best lawyers. The very best lawyer he said was the ones that not only had experience on both sides of the room but also sat at the head as a judge.
You will find that lawyers that have experience as defense, prosecution, and judges are the MOST expensive and Sought after counselors.
Now put that in pipe and smoke it.
I'm not going to speak on the merits of the accusation levied against the lawyers that the APWA has doing some paper work for them. I think though your blowing their role out of portion. You still seem narrowly focused on attacking the APWA and not saying boo about the injustice that this socialist pension fund meets out on UPS workers. Fine, you want to crap can the APWA because they hired (for the time being) a law firm that has experience in contract negotiations, then have at it, but don't neglect to point your finger back at the alternative.
BTW, I had great lawyer tell me once that the best criminal defenses lawyer were former prosecutor. Lawyers that know and have experience on both sides of the room are the best lawyers. The very best lawyer he said was the ones that not only had experience on both sides of the room but also sat at the head as a judge.
You will find that lawyers that have experience as defense, prosecution, and judges are the MOST expensive and Sought after counselors.
Now put that in pipe and smoke it.
#9
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Posted July 02 2005 - 05:30 PM
Great concept. Look at all the bargaining power we would gain.
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Posted July 02 2005 - 09:13 PM
Yeah, sure ... what a good firm to represent the workers under the wannabe APWA group. The law firm has this article posted on their website, titled 'Beating the Union.'
http://www.williamsmullen.com/news/article..._detail/009.htm
Why don't you encourage Hoffa Jr to join the firm on a consultation basis, so he can make more money and destroy the Teamsters even more. Instead of changing representation, we need a change at the top ..... wish Ron Carey was around still......
APWA .... what a joke.
http://www.williamsmullen.com/news/article..._detail/009.htm
Why don't you encourage Hoffa Jr to join the firm on a consultation basis, so he can make more money and destroy the Teamsters even more. Instead of changing representation, we need a change at the top ..... wish Ron Carey was around still......
APWA .... what a joke.
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Posted July 03 2005 - 05:47 AM
If change is needed, Ron Carey isnt the answer. And APWA sure isnt! Some group wanting to seperate us from the Teamsters so they can destroy the Union there. Sounds like a UPS backed group.
But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you. Matt 6; 33
#12
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Posted July 03 2005 - 05:53 AM
It looks like the only problem that most have with the APWA is the lawyers that are doing the paper work.
Anyone have any law firms that they think can do us a better job, lets have there names and addresses.
It wouldn't be that hard to change law firms,.
Lets pick one that everyone will be happy with, I will volunteer to talk the the officers of the APWA About this and work to change the law firms, and go with it.
So, all of you naysayers get ready, because when we fix this problem, what are you going to come up with next?
Anyone have any law firms that they think can do us a better job, lets have there names and addresses.
It wouldn't be that hard to change law firms,.
Lets pick one that everyone will be happy with, I will volunteer to talk the the officers of the APWA About this and work to change the law firms, and go with it.
So, all of you naysayers get ready, because when we fix this problem, what are you going to come up with next?
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Posted July 03 2005 - 08:09 AM
"If change is needed, Ron Carey isnt the answer. And APWA sure isnt! Some group wanting to seperate us from the Teamsters so they can destroy the Union there. Sounds like a UPS backed group."
Another krashism. No my friend good or bad they are yours. They are a part of your union. They are a part of your brotherhood. Just because you don't like them does not mean they are company supported. But then now that I think about it thats the way your "brotherhood" has squashed democracy in the ranks for as long as they have been in existence. "What's that you got someone out there that disagrees with the union way of runnin thins? We'll shit boys thes probably supported by de company"
Some union you got there Krash.
Another krashism. No my friend good or bad they are yours. They are a part of your union. They are a part of your brotherhood. Just because you don't like them does not mean they are company supported. But then now that I think about it thats the way your "brotherhood" has squashed democracy in the ranks for as long as they have been in existence. "What's that you got someone out there that disagrees with the union way of runnin thins? We'll shit boys thes probably supported by de company"
Some union you got there Krash.
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Posted July 03 2005 - 08:51 AM
101st,
Since when did you become so literate ???
In reviewing most of your posts, until recently, they were just profanity laced tirades. Seems to me, you are a different entity now....
How about that discharge.... that you are so unwilling to explain ??
Who are these "teams" of UPS workers you talk of.... What experience to they have in dealing with the company ?
Wait... I'll answer that for you. NONE. (emphasis added)
Are you so oblivious to the fact, that the company and the Union are advised by their respective legal council, to insure the contract is in compliance with Federal Law ?? And is negotiated by a "Team" of Real experts.... People that have been duly elected.... By the Members to represent their interests. People with real experience. Not armchair quarterbacks such as yourself.
Sawman, Lets remind everyone you don't pay dues.... Turned in your card.... to the principal officer of your local. Took alot of guts.... with your tail between your legs. But you will "volunteer" to talk to the self-appointed officers of the APWA. The same "officers" who don't pay dues themselves.... But go and collect them at their P.O. Box.
Again..... Nice Scam. How you can wake up in the morning and look at yourself, is beyond me.
But that is what the APWA really is about. A small group of individuals trying to supplement their retirement.
Remember..... No Refunds.
-Bug-
Since when did you become so literate ???
In reviewing most of your posts, until recently, they were just profanity laced tirades. Seems to me, you are a different entity now....
How about that discharge.... that you are so unwilling to explain ??
Who are these "teams" of UPS workers you talk of.... What experience to they have in dealing with the company ?
Wait... I'll answer that for you. NONE. (emphasis added)
Are you so oblivious to the fact, that the company and the Union are advised by their respective legal council, to insure the contract is in compliance with Federal Law ?? And is negotiated by a "Team" of Real experts.... People that have been duly elected.... By the Members to represent their interests. People with real experience. Not armchair quarterbacks such as yourself.
Sawman, Lets remind everyone you don't pay dues.... Turned in your card.... to the principal officer of your local. Took alot of guts.... with your tail between your legs. But you will "volunteer" to talk to the self-appointed officers of the APWA. The same "officers" who don't pay dues themselves.... But go and collect them at their P.O. Box.
Again..... Nice Scam. How you can wake up in the morning and look at yourself, is beyond me.
But that is what the APWA really is about. A small group of individuals trying to supplement their retirement.
Remember..... No Refunds.
-Bug-
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Posted July 06 2005 - 06:32 AM
-Bug-
Don't get me wrong, 'cause I'm not entirely in disagreement with you...but if the Teamsters have "experts" negotiating their contracts, then why in hell have they lost a million members' jobs over the last few decades?
Seems to me that true "experts" would have negotatiated contracts that made sure the party they were contracting with could remain viable under...but apparently they haven't. In truth, what Teamster "expertise"there is would seem to come under the heading of "how to lose jobs", whereas just the opposite should have been their prime concern.
Maybe you see things differently, but as a lot of people view it, the Teamsters bragging about their ability to negotiate good contracts is somewhat on the order of an arsonist bragging about his ability to put out fires.
I'm not, of course, maintaining that the APWA would be any better in that regard, but at least it doesn't have the decades-long history of failing it's members that the IBT has.
-scb-
Don't get me wrong, 'cause I'm not entirely in disagreement with you...but if the Teamsters have "experts" negotiating their contracts, then why in hell have they lost a million members' jobs over the last few decades?
Seems to me that true "experts" would have negotatiated contracts that made sure the party they were contracting with could remain viable under...but apparently they haven't. In truth, what Teamster "expertise"there is would seem to come under the heading of "how to lose jobs", whereas just the opposite should have been their prime concern.
Maybe you see things differently, but as a lot of people view it, the Teamsters bragging about their ability to negotiate good contracts is somewhat on the order of an arsonist bragging about his ability to put out fires.
I'm not, of course, maintaining that the APWA would be any better in that regard, but at least it doesn't have the decades-long history of failing it's members that the IBT has.
-scb-
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Posted July 25 2005 - 06:23 AM
Bigunionpisspot,
Again you go off topic to attack the messager and not the message. The APWA is only an alternative and one of many that will soon spawn from the pension injustice meeted out on the UPS workers. I am not afraid of a law firm that is only doing peliminary work for the APWA.
Once the union is recognized and advances its agenda to free UPS workers form the unjust yoke of the Teamsters, it will be TEAMS of members and more than 1 law firm looking over the contracts and suppliments.
I take as an insult you claiming the APWA is in buisness to "suppliment" their retirement, when in fact its sole being is to regain the money that stolen from UPS workers. Its you and the rest of the Teamsters parasites that live off of the backs and wealth the UPS workers create. Your a leach and fraud and I would take the APWA with all its flaws over a union with morons and crooks like you that parade themsevse as brothers when in fact your back stabbers.
Again you go off topic to attack the messager and not the message. The APWA is only an alternative and one of many that will soon spawn from the pension injustice meeted out on the UPS workers. I am not afraid of a law firm that is only doing peliminary work for the APWA.
Once the union is recognized and advances its agenda to free UPS workers form the unjust yoke of the Teamsters, it will be TEAMS of members and more than 1 law firm looking over the contracts and suppliments.
I take as an insult you claiming the APWA is in buisness to "suppliment" their retirement, when in fact its sole being is to regain the money that stolen from UPS workers. Its you and the rest of the Teamsters parasites that live off of the backs and wealth the UPS workers create. Your a leach and fraud and I would take the APWA with all its flaws over a union with morons and crooks like you that parade themsevse as brothers when in fact your back stabbers.
