838 replies to this topic

[UPSSup]

"If I had a full day to do it , I would answer UPSSup´s above nonsense on a point by point basis but this part is truly classic and I can´t resist:"

Alas I have now caused Charlie to lash out at me. Charlie I have never claimed to be into any hindu religions and have always said I respond to the posters on this board in kind. The posts you have now chosen to lash out at me with are examples of response in kind. Its clear I have now made Charlie uncomfortable in trying to better understand him. In the process I have now caused Charlie to violate his religious philosophy and lash out at me in anger seeking revenge. I apologize for making Charlie so uncomfortable and causing him to violate his beliefs.

[Shaman]

"Alas I have now caused Charlie to lash out at me. Charlie I have never claimed to be into any hindu religions and have always said I respond to the posters on this board in kind. The posts you have now chosen to lash out at me with are examples of response in kind. Its clear I have now made Charlie uncomfortable in trying to better understand him. In the process I have now caused Charlie to violate his religious philosophy and lash out at me in anger seeking revenge. I apologize for making Charlie so uncomfortable and causing him to violate his beliefs."


Dear UPS Sup:

Take another look at the author of the post that you are responding to. It isn´t me. It´s someone that knows you better than I do.

Like I said earlier. We find what we are looking for.

It isn´t the Union´s responsibility to see to it that UPS takes care of the widow and family of a private citizen that dies because UPS overworks its employees to the point that they accidently kill private citizens. The Union has nothing to do with the process.

You keep attacking the character of lawyers. I would guess that UPS uses as many or more lawyers as any corporation in the world. UPS doesn´t make legal decisions based on ethics. UPS will develop morals when it becomes profitable to do so. They follow the advice of their lawyers when they get into trouble, the same lawyers that you speak so poorly of. We´re speaking of lawyers that also put money before ethics. That´s what they are paid for.

I would be pleased to correspond with you on this forum but you must be consistant. Otherwise I don´t know who I am addressing. and trust will be elusive. Your last two posts, in response to Brown_Teamster, reveal a side of your personality that you are a little sensitive about.

Drop your anger and prejudice, then we can continue with a meaningful dialogue.

I want to thank Brown_Teamster for providing us with a reality check. I need to remember who I am corresponding with.

In Union,

Charlie



HAPPINESS

If you want others to be happy,
practice compassion.
If you want to be happy,
practice compassion.

- Dalai Lama



[ This message was edited by: Shaman on 23-09-2003 12:46 ]

[UPSSup]

"I would be pleased to correspond with you on this forum but you must be consistant. "

Thank you shaman at last I feel we are on the same plane in conversation. See this is the same thing I´m trying to understand about your position. How do you justify using greed driven lawyers to fight the greedy corperation? How do you justify selecting UPS to fight racism and gay bashing when it is so prevelant in the organization you represent namely the teamsters. How can you be an advocate of freedom when the organization you represent clearly forces its will on its members as witnessed by the recent dues increase? I am puzzled because I sense your pursuit of this higher learning experienced through exposure to religions of peace and servitude should tell you that you violate your principles when you do the above.

[Shaman]

I don´t represent the Teamsters or a religion, I represent myself.
I´m a retired Teamster. I would support the Teamsters to the extent that I believe that they are taking the right action. I would support a corporation or a politician to the extent that I believe that they are taking the right action.

Check out the Randy Olson Federal Lawsuit. The Teamsters Union and United Parcel Service are named as defendants. I do not believe that the Teamsters Union took the right action regarding the termination of Randy Olson. I´ve helped Randy assemble his documentation in that lawsuit.

I have answered more questions than you can think of in my deposition in that lawsuit. You can read it by clicking on the link below. I answer more questions than you can think of in that deposition.

Your comments about using lawyers doesn´t make any sense. Like it or not, we must all use lawyers if we are to deal with complex legal matters in court. I don´t have the time or the desire to get a legal degree.

I don´t mean to judge, but I´m starting to feel like I´m dealing with someone with a learning disability. Either that or you are being insincere. This is all simple stuff.

Are you interested in a higher learning experience? You won´t understand my motivation if you are not. This is not about me being right and you being wrong. I appreciate the fact that you are who you are. You serve as an example and so do I.

A friend of mind put together a web page titled Meditation for Stress Management. Check it out and tell me what you think.



Randy Olson

Click here for the Randy Olson Web Page

Click here for meditation for stress management

[UPSSup]

"I don´t mean to judge, but I´m starting to feel like I´m dealing with someone with a learning disability. Either that or you are being insincere. This is all simple stuff. "

Ahh if you truly believe so then you should be even more willing to help me understand your outlook. How it is your able to balance your religious philosophy with your actions? You have allowed me to enjoy some terrific graphics that is your claim to fame. You reference the various peace loving religions you have exposed yourself to yet as I try to understand how you balance you warlike actions with your beliefs you appear to become frustrated and instead attempt to lash out at me and belittle me. All the while I have willingly shown you the upmost respect.

"Are you interested in a higher learning experience? You won´t understand my motivation if you are not. This is not about me being right and you being wrong."

Ahh but you did make me wrong and make you right when you insulted me by stating I had a learning disability. If it is not so why do you continue to do so? Why is it your so uncomfortable with discussing your beliefs and how your able to validate your actions that are in appearance contradictory to the religious philosophy that you espouse. If your beliefs are pure and sincere then should you not be comfortable in discussing them? These beliefs are your banner, your mantra. You sell this concept that these religions are a part of you. In looking and reading this though I also see that you are in fact a leader who has clearly vaulted himself into such a position. This is a self serving action that contradictes these eastern philosophies. Servitude for the betterment of mankind is pure , Servitude that promotes yourself is seen as self serving only. Forgive me for being so slow to understand such complex issues.

[UPSSup]

Thanks for the link The first page alone had a quote that I thought addressed what I am trying to understand.

"Meditation is the process of discovery of ones own self. Solve your own problems by calming the thought waves of your mind. Develop your own philosophy of life. Excel spiritually, mentally and physically. Seek your truth, beat stress, sleep good at night, live life to the fullest, and most importantly be happy. This is your class and it develops around your needs. Go on try it, it really works."

Shouldn´t you be comfortable with your beliefs at this point or am I helping you awaken to some of the contradictions in philosophy that I see. You make the point that you have to use lawyers to fight legal battles. This point is clearly obvious and did not need to enter into the discussion. You previously mentioned the character flaws of the corperation. I understand that you have to use lawyers to fight the legal battles but how does the eastern religious side of you feel about using the devil to fight the demon? Is not your position leading the various fights you have engaged self serving? Wouldn´t you be holding more to your beliefs if you stripped yourself of all titles such as "THE SHAMAN" the jewelry that you wear on your posts, the self serving websites, and instead stayed in the background mentoring those that needed your service?

[UPSSup]

Chuck,
I´ve been through the various web sites you have linked here several times. At this point its been what 6 to 7 years? You fought it through the grievance and panel process I assume? You fought the fight in various courtrooms. You may win you may not who knows. But it seems the clock is working against you. To anyone looking in from the outside this appears to be one big pissing contest. I´m sure Randy Olson is a great guy, I´m also sure I can find plenty of people that tell me Marty Frates is a great guy. I´m sure if I could talk to the UPS management that have dealt with both they could tell me plenty of stories of times when randy or marty were anything but great guys. So where does it end? This type of activity would appear to me to do more to destroy the teamsters union then help it. Lines have been drawn , sides taken and an endless war is being fought. This weakens your labor cause because the one true strength a union has is its united front. This is another example of what puzzles me about you. forgiveness is a clear proponent of the religions you claim as your own.

[UPSSup]

Again see if you can forgive my learning disabilities what I allegedly represent and actually provide some honest answers. If the eastern religous thing is just something you get into when you light up a dooby or smoke a little peyote then say so and lets move on.

[Shaman]

Dear UPS Supervisor:

The Eastern Religion / philosophy thing is just one of the influences that I draw from. There is also much to be learned from Western Pholosophy and Native American beliefs. It sounds like you are struggling with the idea that I follow or practice an Eastern Religion or philosophy.

It would be more accurate to say that I have been influenced by transpersonal psychology, a Western discipline that is not a Religion. We find elements of transpersonal psychology in virtually all the worlds religions. This would include indigenous (native) religions. I don´t claim any religion(s) as my own.

The battles that friends and I are engaged in are never ending. My involvement will end some day but the battles will always go on.

I have answered your question regarding the use of lawyers.

Right and wrong are subjective judgments. Cause and effect are objective observations. We are both right and we are both wrong from subjective viewpoints. We both exist from an objective viewpoint. So if you are looking for a final determination and an end of the battle of right versus wrong, it aint gonna happen.

Right and wrong are subjective projections that don´t exist in an objective world. Have you read "The Dancing Wu Li Masters by Gary Zukov? It´s a laymans introduction to quantum mechanics. Mr. Zukov does a wonderful job of explaining the mechanics of the subjective universe. In comparison, I am totally unqualified to do so.

I´m sorry you took offense when I asked if you had a learning disability. I´ve had a learning disability all of my life. I´m not sensitive about it. I do the best I can with what I have.

"Wouldn´t you be holding more to your beliefs if you stripped yourself of all titles such as "THE SHAMAN" the jewelry that you wear on your posts, the self serving websites, and instead stayed in the background mentoring those that needed your service?"

I wouldn´t be here learning from you if I stayed in the background. I learn more from interacting with people than being quiet and hidden. I don´t mind controversy. It has something to do with my learning disability. I have an active mind. I get restless when I´m too quiet. My learning disability is a form of ADD (attention deficit disorder). Can you imagine how difficult it is to meditate with ADD. I suppose that´s why I do so much seva. I like being active.

I have to agree that most people don´t say much about their seva. I´m a little different. I think we should talk about the beneficial things that we do. We hear so much about the negative.

I do a special type of meditation. Would you like to learn more about it? You have an active mind. I´ll bet that you would find it beneficial!

Thanks for the provocative dialogue. I find it worthwhile to contemplatie my motivations.

===============
When a thing ceases to be a subject of controversy, it ceases to be a subject of interest.

William Hazlitt (1778–1830), English essayist. “The Spirit of Controversy,” in The Atlas (31 Jan. 1830; repr. in Complete Works, vol. 20, ed. by P. P. Howe, 1932).

[Shaman]

LEADERSHIP

A good leader inspires others
with confidence in him;
a great leader inspires them
with confidence in themselves.

- Unknown

[UPSSup]

"Thanks for the provocative dialogue. I find it worthwhile to contemplatie my motivations. "

Good post.

[Shaman]

The following was recently posted on the Main Forum:

"Speaking of "shaman", he definitely does not have both oars in the water, as UPSSup readily proved. Trying to make sense of shaman is a sure migraine inducer."

I´m not sure why the poster would feel this way.

I think it would be keeping with the spirit on this string if I posted something about my background. After all, I started this string, I know Dan Kline, and I am somewhat instrumental in several lawsuits that originated at the Oakland Hub.

I´m going to post page one of my resume. I may post page two if it would be helpful. I don´t want to get a bad reputation based on a false perception of who I am. I would be pleased with getting a bad reputation based on an accurate perception of who I am.

=====================================
RESUME of Charles Engel
Walnut Creek, California 94596
email: theshaman@earthlink.net

Objective: Providing a partial work history for the readers of Teamster.net

Education
1965 Graduated from Sunset High School, Hayward, California

Experience

12/02 – Present San Leandro High, Adult School
(Campus Supervisor) (Chief Steward, Chapter 94, California School Employees Association)

09/02 – 12/02 San Leandro Unified School District (Relief Campus Supervisor)

1983 to 2002 United Parcel Service, Oakland, Ca. (Car Washer & Union Steward)

1969 to 1983 Pacific Motor Trucking Company, Oakland, Ca. (Combination Man & Union Steward)

1969 Montgomery Ward, Concord Ca. (Assistant Garden Department Manager)

1966 to 1969 Gemco, San Leandro, San Jose and Walnut Creek, Ca. (Garden Department Manager at the above three locations)

1965 to 1966 Simon Hardware, Walnut Creek, Ca. (Nursery helper)

Brief Description of Experience

In 1966, at the age of 19, I became the youngest supervisor in the Gemco Chain of Stores. I was a Garden Department Supervisor at the San Leandro and San Jose stores before I was asked to open the Walnut Creek Store. I was responsible for ordering a $100,000 inventory for the new store. It was my responsibility to interface with upper management as well as the hourly employees in the mediation of problem areas and the day-to-day management of my department. I had an open mind to new ideas and a predisposition to question everyone. I enjoyed interacting with customers and workers. I learned from the interactions. I often felt challenged by the situations. I became disenchanted with upper management in 1969 and I left Gemco.

I took a temporary job at Montgomery Ward in Concord, Ca. as a Garden Department Assistant Manager until I found a Teamster job. Pacific Motor Trucking (P.M.T.) hired me as an office helper. My experience at P.M.T. eventually included budget and record keeping, processing personnel for hire, composing and typing letters for the Automotive Department District Manager, routing mail, answering phones, being a Shop Steward, tanker truck driver & fueler, janitor, changing flat tires on trailers, steam cleaning auto carriers, sweeping out trailers, emptying trash cans, sweeping and mopping, cleaning toilets, waxing floors, changing the oil and lubricating diesel tractors, fueling “piggy-back” un-loaders at the Southern Pacific rail yard and a few other duties. A layoff occurred when Pacific Motor Trucking downsized.

With help from my Teamsters Union Representative, I was soon hired at United Parcel Service. I was appointed Alternate Shop Steward. I became Shop Steward a few years later. I spent many years fueling and washing package cars and positioning them for loading. While at U.P.S. I also washed diesel tractors and trailers, detailed, swept, cleaned windows, checked oil and did fuel reports on the computer. I interacted with coworkers and management in a friendly and helpful way. Grievances were rarely filed except when communications broke down. I retired in 2002.

===========================

Page 2 of my RESUME describes COMMUNITY SERVICE and HUMANITARIAN EXPERIENCE

[UPSSup]

In hind sight it would appear that you would be generating your lawsuits for someone else if we had not done the union rep the favor of hiring you in 83?

[TA]

This wacko posted his resume as a joke, right?

[UPSSup]

I take it he no longer needs to be employed. Shaman do you generate any compensation from the aforementioned lawsuits you help form?

[Shaman]

"In hind sight it would appear that you would be generating your lawsuits for someone else if we had not done the union rep the favor of hiring you in 83?"

I have an excellent working relationship with the San Leandro School District. I haven´t had to file grievances. We work together in resolving problems before they become larger.

The same would be true for any employer that I work with. The course of action is determined by the employer, not I. Coworkers and I would have no prodlems to address if our employer listened to our complaints and suggestions and took the right action. You don´t get into trouble for breaking the law when you take the right action.

UPS didn´t do my Union Rep a favor when they hired me in 83. My Union Rep simply told me that a job was available. UPS hired me because I was qualified and I applied for the job. I can thank my Union Rep for telling me when to apply.

===========================

"I take it he no longer needs to be employed. Shaman do you generate any compensation from the aforementioned lawsuits you help form?"

I haven´t received a penny from any of the lawsuits that friends and I have been instrumental in. I have been doing community service work. I have spent thousands of dollars of my own money in the process of doing community service. It has been worth it. I have had the honor of working with and being inspired by some amazing individuals and organizations.

[TA]

Quote:

[indent] 02-10-2003 at 15:51, Shaman wrote: The same would be true for any employer that I work with. The course of action is determined by the employer, not I. Coworkers and I would have no prodlems to address if our employer listened to our complaints and suggestions and took the right action. You don´t get into trouble for breaking the law when you take the right action. I haven´t received a penny from any of the lawsuits that friends and I have been instrumental in. I have been doing community service work. I have spent thousands of dollars of my own money in the process of doing community service. It has been worth it. I have had the honor of working with and being inspired by some amazing individuals and organizations. This wacko posted this response as a joke, right? [/indent]

[UPSSup]

"I have an excellent working relationship with the San Leandro School District. I haven´t had to file grievances. We work together in resolving problems before they become larger.

The same would be true for any employer that I work with. The course of action is determined by the employer, not I. Coworkers and I would have no prodlems to address if our employer listened to our complaints and suggestions and took the right action. You don´t get into trouble for breaking the law when you take the right action"

Good answer. And fair if thats really how you approach all issues. You previously mentioned the one lawsuit where you helped a widow. What others were you involved with and why did you feel the legal process was required and not the grievance process supported contractually.

[Shaman]

I´ll answer your post late tonight or tomorrow. Sorry, but I don´t have much time today.

[Shaman]

"You previously mentioned the one lawsuit where you helped a widow. What others were you involved with and why did you feel the legal process was required and not the grievance process supported contractually."

Think of me as a gardener. People give me seeds. I plant and nurture some. On occasion, I ignore the gift. I´ve given alot of seeds away. I don´t try to control what others do with the seeds. The tree grows if they take the right action. The tree dies if they don´t. Sometimes it will live without growing. A few exceptional individuals will nurture to tree to the point where it bears fruit and then share the fruit with others. Again, I can´t nor do I want to control a persons predisposition to garden.

I receive seeds as a gift, I give them away and others do the same. That is the nature of my involvment in lawsuits.

You can learn more about the lawsuits that I am involved in by reading my posts. The extent of my involvment will have to be left up to conjecture. There is no need or means of determining the extent of my involvment. Think of me as a simple catalyst for that is what I am.

====================================

The grievance procedure is used to circumvent the law. There are no checks and balances for grievance panels. They are a secret court of law. The membership is not allowed to observe and learn from the grievance procedure. Grievance panel decisions aren´t used for contract clarification. Read a summary of grievance panels decisions and tell me what you learn.

Legitimate grievance panels, that the membership as well as management can observe, should be used as a last resort. They whould be used when all else fails. The majority of problems could and should be resolved in prepanel meetings. This doesn´t occur at U.P.S. Grievance panels have become mock courts set up in violation of established legal procedure. The N.L.R.B. defers to a corrupt grievance procedure that is manipulated to the mutual benefit of both management and the union. This process circumvents protection we are afforded under the National Labor Relations Act, including the special protection granted to shop stewards.

The only accurate record of what transpires at grievance panels is found on the grievance panel tapes. How many members know that these tapes exist? It appears that members are no longer able to gain access to the grievance panel tapes without a subpoena. This appears to be a new policy, in Joint Council 7, that was put into place when coworkers and I uncovered inconsistencies and fraud. Neither U.P.S. or the Union wants to be held accountable for an accurate record of what transpires at the grievance panels. Thus, the Union protects the employer from the law while providing the membership with the illusion of fair representation.